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hmurchison
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The Trials of An Independent Black Woman
http://www.mybrotha.com/independent.asp

First off let me preface this by stating that I do not speak for all men of course. I merely offer my points and opinions on this fine article.

I find that the description “Independent Woman” is somewhat of a misnomer. It seems to be borne from the Women’s Liberation movement and has stuck. If you are successful and a woman you are Independent however that almost implies that if you aren’t a successful woman with a great paying job you might be dependent. I choose to look at it from a more holistic viewpoint. Independence is something that varies greatly within a single individual. My 3.5 yr old son is independent in many ways but he is equally dependent in many others.

Professional women have gained independence in more areas than ever before. Financial independence being likely the byproduct of an influx of capable women into the workforce. My point is that we really need more specificity on just what makes today’s successful woman independent. Let us address some salient points of the article.

Are Men That Intimidated?

Some men are intimidated by anyone that women that might not fall for any shenanigans. Some men are intimidated by intellect and a fear of their own capabilities or lack thereof. Some men are not intimidated at all. I’ve never met a soul that didn’t have some questions or need counsel. Education only provides the basics…how you manage your life is a factor of your home rearing, education and environment. Men indeed have been the fixer for quite some time but I’m seeing that more and more men are happy to see the trials are tribulations of life can be load balanced across a strong relationship. These men will not be intimidated; in fact, they will embrace your independence.

Men Need To Be Needed

I’ve never met a woman that needed nothing. Women tend to have a high EQ (emotional quotient) and differences in child development allow them to be more open about their problems. Young boys are told to clam up and stop whining as we grow older which really is a detriment to developing excellent communication skills. No one has all the answers and while I admit I need to be needed I find that to be a natural desire of any healthy relationship.

High Expectations


Quote:
Most independent, successful Black women have high expectations when seeking men, and rightfully so. A lot of energy is required and expended when striving for goals, and women wish to have someone who is equally yoked financially, professionally, and spiritually. This is not only fair, but expected - since most women will not tolerate supporting a man who hasn't matured, or one who is slow in bringing his share to the table.



This is the most troubling problem with successful women and in particular women of color. The world revels in your accomplishments. However it is here that you begin to lose sight of the Big Picture. Is life about using your accomplishments as a line of demarcation? Successful women have even coined a new phrase “Marrying Down” to describe engaging in nuptials with a man who is not your equal in education and pay. Now I may be a rather young 34 but I don’t remember my father ever telling me that my mother’s financial status was a factor in their marriage. In fact rarely do men sit around and discuss such things. Sure it is nice to have a dual income household with above average salaries but men tend to look at other attributes for picking the ideal mate. After all we grew up with the Cleavers and Brady’s and those men never admonished their wives for being homemakers. Nor would they consider it marrying down. Men have a comfort with power and leadership that women still don’t understand fully.


Quote:
Men often feel uncomfortable when their counterparts command higher salaries, or can adequately provide for themselves without help.


Perhaps, when salary or education is used as some proof of superiority then I think you certainly would see a bit of discomfort in males. Some people view success from different angles and many aren’t willing to pay the costs involved in running up the Corporate Ladder. They still feel like smart and vibrant people and demand to be valued.

Relationships will improve amongst our black couples when both parties learn to see the value in each other. By focusing on status we have once again let an external party define us to the point in which we may rebuke true love which is a gift from God. We must realize that a formal education is means to an end and that endgame is gainful employment and the ability to live out ones dreams. If you’re shutting yourself off from your blue collar soul mate you may have just lost the one thing that cannot be purchased at any price.

HM
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2/21/2006 20:02 Link - Ip: Logged - Quote:
Sarina22
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Quote:
I find that the description “Independent Woman” is somewhat of a misnomer. It seems to be borne from the Women’s Liberation movement and has stuck


This is true; and I think it has both advantages and disadvantages.


Quote:
Are Men That Intimidated?

Some men are intimidated by anyone that women that might not fall for any shenanigans


Okay...but those are the types of men who shouldn't even count. If they are out there playing games, then a woman doesnt care about them being intimidated.


Quote:
Men Need To Be Needed


Okay... I can understand that a man has the desire to be wanted in his relationship. But why would a man expect a complete stranger to be depending on him? If she is by herself, she has to work her job, pay her own bills, buy her own food... Do men want to meet helpless women who don't have anything and the first words out of their mouths are, "Hello...I'm a woman, will you take care of me?"


Quote:
Is life about using your accomplishments as a line of demarcation?


I think women just want the same things, and to reach the same goals. I think the demarcation thing is influenced more by men, since they are the ones who seem intimidated by what the sistas got.


Quote:
Men have a comfort with power and leadership that women still don’t understand fully


This sounds like you are saying that women should allow men to control whatever they want to control, and learn to accept him and his natural desires? And since its not natural for a woman to have so much money, so much control, etc., this is why men are intimidated? Hmmmm...

Damn...I haven't talked this much online in a long time
2/22/2006 05:32 Link - Ip: Logged - Quote:
VickanS
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I don't get intimidated by independent until they start throwing their "independance" up in my face. That is disrespectful, whether you are a man or a woman.
2/22/2006 05:36 Link - Ip: Logged - Quote:
hmurchison
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VickanS wrote:
I don't get intimidated by independent until they start throwing their "independance" up in my face. That is disrespectful, whether you are a man or a woman.



I agree. Sometimes it's yielded like a weapon. My gf constantly reminds me that she's independent and an educated black woman. I constantly remind her that those are the attributes that I like in a mate

For most of my life my sister and I grew up in a single parent household with my mother going from College to Law School. So I've never known life without a powerful female figure in it. This basically has helped me deal with the rising might of women in America with relative ease.

Black Men have not done a very good job in matching the accomplishments of black women. However it is not time for black women to turn their back on us and join the bourgeoise just yet. Economic power is something that should expand your options not limit them.
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2/22/2006 07:15 Link - Ip: Logged - Quote:
hmurchison
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Quote:
This sounds like you are saying that women should allow men to control whatever they want to control, and learn to accept him and his natural desires? And since its not natural for a woman to have so much money, so much control, etc., this is why men are intimidated? Hmmmm...


Excellent responses

What I mean is why should a successful woman feel any pressure if she marry's a man who doesn't have the same education or salary or height or color? Isn't this a bunch of road blocks we set up to prevent ourselves from being happy?

Are we once again allowing someone else to define our success. For instance.

If a Profesional and Independent Black woman was to marry a contruction worker. While others may think that she's marrying down from a different perspective she could be making the successful choice in marriages if that man treats her like the Queen she is.

When we allow ourselves to be manipulated by status we are basically handing over what we define as righteous and correct for ourselve and giving that to another power. That doesn't sound independent nor too intelligent.

Men don't really care about a woman's job. Sure some worry about her status if they've been afflicted with the aformentioned sickness but most of us realize that a good woman could be a homemaker and have a profound effect on our lives and posterity.

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2/23/2006 14:39 Link - Ip: Logged - Quote:
willie6
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Quote:
Men don't really care about a woman's job.


I will have to sort of disagree. I think that men naturally feel more secure if they are the breadwinners. If a woman commands a higher salary than a man, some black men are put off by that.

Also I don't think a lot of sistas who have high end professional jobs would date a construction worker. I think many women do see this as, 'dumbing down', or settling when they may actually want someone who has a salary equal (or higher) than their own.
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2/24/2006 06:47 Link - Ip: Logged - Quote:
hmurchison
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Let me restate this because I think my intention are different.

Men do care if a woman makes more money however when choosing a potential mate a woman's job is "normally" far lower on the totem pole of criterion than the inverse.

Willie6 you are hitting the bullseye on the last part. "Marrying Down" or "Settling" is exactly what they're calling it. Men never treated women like this, we are comfortable with women as long as they are good. How are you going to tell me your an Independent Strong Black Woman if you can't see beyond status and salary? That sounds pretty damn dependent to me.

My mother is a Lawyer ...my stepfather is a sales manager at a clothing store. Want to know why she's successful? Because she's happy.

My gf has a Master's Degree and often tosses that around as some affirmation of intelligence. I've never made the connection. School is about memorizing the information needed to get the good grades on the next test. Our education system is woefully inadequate in teaching kids to think outside the box. We're basically creating educated robots. And in this case these robots are buying into their own hype. The Independent Woman is one of these robots.

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2/24/2006 08:50 Link - Ip: Logged - Quote:
willie6
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Quote:
...a woman's job is "normally" far lower on the totem pole of criterion than the inverse.


True. I feel ya on that.

I just think that all the talk about independent women not being able to find men, is mostly caused by the independent women themselves. I ain't no socialogist, but I know what I see and what I have experienced. Sistas get a little education, a job and some money, then they don't wanna deal with a certain type of man.

Not saying they should accept any kinda man, but that "dumbing down" thing gets me. Its almost like many black women forget where they came from when they reach a certain status.
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2/25/2006 17:14 Link - Ip: Logged - Quote:
trek
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Anyone interested in a good article, I wrote one called "The Right Mr. Right," It's been posted all over the web. Sisters might need to read it. Brothers too, so they won't get caught up in the hype. Google it if you'd like.
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4/1/2006 16:22 Link - Ip: Logged - Quote:
magicwanda
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Not wanting a mate of unequal intellect and education does not mean that one has forgot where they came from.It may mean they are just not there anymore.If someone stops drinking and decide to change associates,no one says that they forgot where they came from.Therefore if a sista comes from a background of poverty and poor education(most Blacks do), but decides to change paths and break the cycle,hats off to her! You should not be suprised if she does not want to befreind a certain type of person.If a man has a low paying job,there is a good chance that he is uneducated. I am talking about rules -not exceptions.Think about it- how compatible do you think a doctor and a garbage man really are?Besides,I do not see highly educated brothas hooking up with sistas that work at McDonalds.In fact,sometimes highly educated brothas do not hook up with sistas at all! However,no one is critical of him when he chooses a mate of equal intellect and status.I no there is a shortage of brothas.All sistas feel this! However,PLEASE stop telling and encouraging us sistas to take a brotha anyway that he comes.I once read an article that told us to consider those brothas coming out of prison.If nothing else,the HIV stats of ex-cons is alarming enough to send us running from those men.I will remain single untill I meet a decent gentleman of equal or greater intellect that I am compatible with.He may not be a brotha.Thats ok too.I know what I am worth,I have basic non negatiable standards,and I am in no hurry to get married! I can and will wait.
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Magic Wanda
6/30/2007 14:50 Link - Ip: Logged - Quote:
professionalism
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It is not that an "uneducated man" or a "poor" is not good enough for most "educated women" it is that no man is good enough for them. Most women in those categories lack one major component, HUMILITY

They list and list of unrealistic demands that they want fulfilled every day of the hour.

They expect everything to be contributed (on the man's part) while they contribute nothing.

A lot, not all, but a lot of so called "educated" women have attitudes and egos that are atrocious, so bad that people of the same sex don't want to deal with them.

As a man you can't be the "leader" (and before you self entitlement egocentric fems jump on that one) there is difference betwen "leading" and "controlling" big difference.

Men will go where they feel they are wanted or needed, point blank. More men are wising up and are refusing to put up with the foul egos and unrealistic demands that a lot of these so-called strong/independent/educated women are displaying.
This awareness is transcending all race and culture.

It is one thing to be a well rounded male or female who prides oneself on their accomplishments, it is another to be someone that has huge ego, a foul attitude, and uses their acquired status as a defense mechanism.
That is so many of these women are pissing and moaning about being alone, they can't check their own ego.
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8/20/2007 19:49 Link - Ip: Logged - Quote:
AFox707
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The main thing my mother always told me (and I found it to be true) is that you can't mix backgrounds. So when I say that (someone else mentioned...how much do you think the garbage man and the doctor have in common), it means that marrying too far outside your current status level only leads to fights, heartache and sometimes misery over the most basic things in life. For example, you may value education and your mate may say..."I made it w/o a college degree, so what's the big deal"....so that when you start wanting to save for the kids education, he/she may see that as a waste of money. When you decide that you want to go back to school to get your Masters degree, he/she may say, what do you need that for etc. There can be other instances where the mixing of backgrounds (and to simplify, I will say white collar/blue collar) creates more problems than it's worth.
On the other hand, I do feel that men want to and should be needed and anyone who's in a relationship with a woman who constantly lets him know "that she don't need him b/c she's independent" will find her self w/o a man b/c he will be somewhere where his is needed.

That goes back to the point about humility.....and it also goes to the point of letting GOD guide you.
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9/1/2007 22:47 Link - Ip: Logged - Quote:
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AFox707 wrote:
The main thing my mother always told me (and I found it to be true) is that you can't mix backgrounds. So when I say that (someone else mentioned...how much do you think the garbage man and the doctor have in common), it means that marrying too far outside your current status level only leads to fights, heartache and sometimes misery over the most basic things in life.


The problem that usually arises is the acquisition of "materials" and using "materials" to impress or show off to others.


Quote:

For example, you may value education and your mate may say..."I made it w/o a college degree, so what's the big deal"....so that when you start wanting to save for the kids education, he/she may see that as a waste of money. When you decide that you want to go back to school to get your Masters degree, he/she may say, what do you need that for etc. There can be other instances where the mixing of backgrounds (and to simplify, I will say white collar/blue collar) creates more problems than it's worth.

Well men who mix with women from other cultures, countries, and communities usually do not have a problem. And most men I know who go into that realm are often pretty happy.
I think the "education" example is stretching it to far, because regardless, any decent person wants to see their offspring succeed and their linage passed on. Furthermore a college or graduate level education doesn't mean success, I know way to many people who were undergrads who were dumb and lazy as bricks...but that is another story.
Mixing of backgrounds is not a problem, but selfish, materialistic, and status driven people are...
It is not background it is attitude, which I referred to in my previous post.
Yes two people may have been raised differently and may come from different social settings, but even then common ground/goals can be found.


Quote:

That goes back to the point about humility.....and it also goes to the point of letting GOD guide you.

I'm confused here, "God" must guide you, but you disprove of "mixing" of the backgrounds...I don't quite follow this one?

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9/8/2007 18:19 Link - Ip: Logged - Quote:
brian07
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successful black women are hard to approach. I've noticed it's always the mens fault. "oh theres not enough good brothas out there" "brothas dont like sistas making more money then them" which I feel is a lie. The reason why most sucessful sistas are single is because they expect to much from a brotha. The brotha has to have money, wealth, status, clean clothes, clean hygiens, nice rides, smooth nice game daily, remind her shes a princess everyday, nice sex, education, just on point with everyday. If a brotha falls short in one of those categorys especially MONEY, hes out the door. Most successful sistas go with famous brothas, white men, or brothas with alot of money and status(high class). I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but please oh please, dont blame the brothas saying "theres not enough good brothas out" when yall are too pickey. Sistas are kind of like mc donalds. You know some customers want there burgers made a certain way, with certain stuff on it, with a certain look to it(just how it looks on tv)..and certain stuff not to be on it?..thats what you have from most sistas with a degree.
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mama_africa
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How can a woman say that she is indepedent if she wants a man to take care of her? Can anyone answer that for me?
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MBRAN03
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Some women say that they are independent becuase, she has been able to take care of things like single parenting, or just simply getting an education and providing for herself. Which ultimatley says that she's independent. However on the other hand, I think that most women desire to have that husband figure in thier life, which doesn't mean that he is taking care of her totally, but in a way that the ideal man is suppose to take care of his wife and/or family.
6/25/2008 14:42 Link - Ip: Logged - Quote:
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